March 27, 2012
MS. BLUE
We?re in the final days of our month long look at sexual fluidity, and if you?ve been paying attention you?ll likely have noticed that, despite our best efforts, there has been a real dearth of one very important thing:
Male voices.
But I?m sure none of you are really surprised by this, as we all know that we live in a world where men have relatively little room to express or explore their sexuality (at least as compared to women) without their manhood being called into question. Still, since we here at MetAnotherFrog.com are interested in presenting as many sides of the story as we can to promote thought and dialogue, I was determined to find a sexually fluid man who would talk to me open and honestly about his own experiences.
Well folks, after wracking my brain for a long while, I finally remembered that I heard such a man ??whose name I couldn?t remember ???speak at the Playground conference way back in November. So I put out a desparate call for help to Samantha Fraser, the aforementioned conference, and she swiftly pointed me in the right direction (many thanks lady!). And as luck would have it said man, who I seriously doubt had heard of me or this little blog before my email request landed in his inbox, graciously agreed to sitting down to an interview with me.
Happy Reading!
SB
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On your twitter profile you list yourself as a Poly, Queer, Kinky, ageplayer and unrepentant sinner, and you?ve also been described as a Non-Monogamous Switch Leatherman. Is there more or is that the complete list?
DI: You know it?s kinda hard to say, cause you?re always more some of your labels than others. Those are good conversation starters in terms of what I am and who I am and how I approach my life and my sexuality. Those are definitely good starting points for conversations.
But for example, one of the relationships I?m in right now, she?s labelled me as her Daddy and her dominant. However, I wouldn?t necessarily use that label if I wasn?t in that relationship. So some of it?s contextual when it comes to labels, whereas others are the broad sweeping ones that indicate what tribes you align yourself??with, how you view yourself and how you want to put yourself out there in the world. So those labels are really good as a starting point for me to get into the conversations and interactions I want to be involved in.
What do all those labels, chosen identities mean to you and how do they come together ? or not ? in your life?
DI: For me those labels mean that I am open to receiving love, affection and connection in whatever shape it comes. Just as I think most people from most walks of life are open to loving people in appropriate contexts, for example loving one person in a conjugal way, as well as having familial love and the love of friendship in their lives that is to varying degrees and encompasses more than one person.
Poly is the idea of being capable of having many loving relationships. However some people who identify under that label kind of exclude the fact that you can have one off encounters that are really meaningful or special because it has to be about stereotypical love. So I also sometimes use the term non-monogamous to indicate that I?m open to and respectful of the joy that I can get from experiences that aren?t just love focused. I?m going to take the love that comes into my life in whatever form is shows up.
The queer label is important for me from a couple of different perspectives. I found the term bisexual to be somewhat limiting previously, although I?m glad to use that label as well. But queer meant to me that I didn?t accept the fact that gender is a binary and opens me up to the possibility with people of trans identities, third gendered people?Or allowed people to self-identify and view all gender as either male or female, making room for the broad spectrum in between. Queer is a political label as well. My feeling is that the personal is political and that by using an inclusive label like queer I?m aligning myself other people who strive to have relationships that are outside of the heternormative box. So, I consider myself to part of that tribe.
Kinky?uhhhm pervert (laughs). I?m glad to engage in all kinds of alternate sex. Depending on the person I?m with and the relationship I?m having that can range from anything from very aggressive sex to stuff where you?d want to take a class on how to do it before you tried it. Like flogging and whipping, playing with cutting. I can enjoy things on either end of that spectrum of extremity.
Ageplaying is about role playing to be an age other than you actually are. So either myself or a partner I?m with can do role play along the lines of them being a little girl or boy, or myself being a little girl or boy or a teenager. Something that is very common, is the idea of the naughty school girl. And although they are rare there are also people who like to play an older role than they actually are. I know one woman who enjoys pretending that she?s a geriatric patient.?So it?s really just a subcategory of role playing in general, but the reason that I call it out specifically is that if someone sees or hears me referring to my partner as a little girl, I want to them to understand that is actually a woman who is of age.
Switch. I like to play on both sides of that. I have been in relationships when I?ve been on the bottom and strictly played a submissive role. Right now my primary relationship is with someone to whom I?m a top and I use the Daddy name for. So I?ve played on a wide spectrum with that, ?played both sides and I like exploring it all.
Leatherman is about being part of a tribe of people who identify within the leather community. That ties in a lot with queer sexuality as well. For me leather is about connecting with people who are in the alternative sexuality space. A lot of us also have fetishes for leather, like dressing up in leather, and we build communities and relationships around that.
The unrepentant sinner simply gives a nod to my Catholic upbringing. I?m not ashamed of who I am. I?m certainly cautious about who I share certain things with, but I?m not ashamed of who I am. I?m proud to be who I am and to embrace the things that I enjoy sexually. My sexuality is a large part of my life and I?m not ashamed of that fact.
You just mentioned that you find the bisexual label limiting. Could you elaborate on why that is?
DI: I find that a lot of folks who identify with bisexual view it in such a way that you can only be with a man or with a woman, and I just don?t find it as encompassing as the label of queer. I can use it in certain contexts. Like if I?m talking to someone who doesn?t have a lot of background in the alternative sexuality and creative sex positive spaces, if I was coming out to someone at work for example, I would probably use bisexual in my elevator pitch of who I am.
But when I?m engaging in alternative sexuality spaces, especially a lot of the spaces that I initially came into, which were very gender normative and there were a lot of expectations about men being a certain way and women being a certain way, I just find queer to give me more of a sense of community.?I find a sense of connection, brotherhood with gay men, lesbian woman and trans people. I consider them all to be a part of my tribe as well, so it?s important to me that in those contexts that the labels I use are inclusive of those people.
I interviewed Melodie Anne Millar a Queer, Poly, Kinky, and Pagan woman, earlier this month and she also uses the term ?tribe? to describe the communities she is most connected to. It?s interesting that you use it as well. Can you give me some insight into what tribe means to you in the context of community?
DI: For me tribe is about?it brings up this idea of spiritual connections. The idea that not everybody has to be of the exact same mind, but there are still things that draw us together. There is space for us to come together, band together for common causes and work together on our common struggles, but there?s also space for us grow and be our individual selves within that. It also brings up images of us being responsible for each other?s freedom, growth and ability to pursue what we want. So I find that the word tribe works better for the kinds of people and groups I feel drawn to. When I use the word community, the notion of community standards comes up and as I am not a big fan of other people?s rules, it doesn?t resonate with me the same way.
Do you find it easy to stay true to all those identities when you move between each of those give communities?
DI: It?s hard sometimes, it is hard. For example, when I went out to a poly support group because most people within that community are really focused on the idea that relationships are egalitarian, they don?t understand that you can negotiate a healthy relationship with a power imbalance. I respect the fact that in their relationships they want things to be totally and completely equal, but when I turn around and say in my relationship with my girl we?ve negotiated a power imbalance that makes both of us feel happy and fulfilled, I find it hard to find connections and kindred spirits in that space.
I?ve also found that there are some kink spaces, like play parties and munches, that kind of cater to a more heterosexual alignment for couples. I mean, just because a guy likes to be tied up by his girlfriend and be called her ?dirty little whore?, doesn?t mean he?s going to understand a gay man for example. And the sexuality of that gay man may even frighten that him. So my ability to go into those spaces with a male partner or to bring friends of mine that are in same sex couples themselves has been somewhat hampered at times, because of that very narrow world view.
But it?s been changing over the last few years, with more and more people knowing someone who is out. Still I find it interesting that someone within one of the alternative sexuality communities, will be very narrow minded about a member of another. I think it?s human nature to ?other? other people, and to put people in boxes that separate them from you. So it?s challenging.
In a previous conversation you spoke of the difficulties you have being accepted in queer male spaces as a bi guy currently in a LTR with a woman. Can you elaborate on the type of push back you get from other queer men based on your current relationship?
DI: I?ve definitely seen things change for the better, but when I first came out 12 years ago there was definitely a lot of resistance to my going out and participating in the men?s communities and be accepted while being partnered with a woman. As an example, I wanted to go out to a men?s SM group, but they didn?t want me to attend because I was bi. Basically their view was once I?d ?decided? and gotten past the bi phase, I was welcome to come then.
So there is definitely some resistance and I think it?s because gay people have been persecuted for a very long time. When they choose to live their lives openly there?s backlash for that and I think that because of that the fact that I?m interested in living on both sides of the fence, so to speak, makes them feel like I?m living in denial because I?m afraid of giving up the privileges of being partnered with a woman. I think that?s were a lot of the criticism of bisexuality or denial that it even exists comes from.
DI: I think that there is definitely a lot of fear. I came out as kinky to a co-worker because I was going to a kinky camping event. I felt that this woman was ready to hear that because she had gay friends, she was fairly open, and she and I also had this very open flirtatious way of talking with one another. So we were talking about it and she asked me what type of people go to those events. I told her people from all walks of life. Then she made the comment that she would be really afraid if someone who was in charge of children was also kinkster. And that I was really surprised by that, I mean what does my supervision of a child have to do with my sex life? People don?t involve their kids in their sex life, and if they do that?s a whole different issue ? and then it doesn?t matter what that sex life is. So I do encounter ideas around what my sexuality means in terms of my other relationships and the rest of my interactions.
I also tend not to be completely out about being in multiple relationships. I have never been in a situation where I am in a serious relationship with two people at the same time. I?ve always been in one serious relationship, with others developing or growing. But if I got to that point I?d like to think that I?d be strong enough to be out and proud about that, but it?s hard to tell someone at work that I?m dating a new person and then have them turn around and say ?Did you break up with your other partner??. Saying, ?No, she?s cool with it? is a hard thing and I?m also not prepared to sit around to having a long conversation to justify that either.
So it?s difficult because I think visibility is important, because until somebody knows somebody that lives a certain type of life, be it kinky, somewhere on the queer spectrum or non-monogamous, it?s really hard for them to accept that that?s an okay way to be. So being out is really important, but I also want to be able to live my life without my sexuality coming up in non-sexual spaces, for example my work.
Still, it?s a hard balance to maintain since many of the relationships you have are the lubricants for conversations. People talk about partners, spouses, kids a lot in non-sexual spaces, and it?s difficult to find a balance that leaves you feeling safe, because there are so many prejudices against people who are part of alternative sexuality communities.
How did you come to discover your various sexual identities? Did you always know exactly who you were or was it a slow process of ?finding? yourself???Also, based on how your life has unfolded to date, do you think that you?ll evolve in ways that will require you to take on new identities in the future?
DI: I kind of evolved in drips and drabs. Sometimes it?s been a matter of trying something and saying ?Hey that didn?t work so well, maybe my approach is a little bit off.? The first thing I discovered was the fact that I was kinky. During my teenage years the internet was just starting to come in to fruition, but few parents knew how to block it out yet (laughs). Since one of the first things to show up on the internet was porn, I was able to find different websites where I found things that interested me. That?s how I discovered that I like to be submissive in bed.
Around the same time I was also struggling with the fact that I was attracted to men. It?s funny, because even though I had this extremely supportive group of queer people around me, I still didn?t come out. All my friends in high school were gay, bi or lesbian, but I didn?t feel comfortable coming out. It took me two years to finally do it, around the age of 19.
Also, as I opened one door I would discover another. My interest in being submissive lead to my being in relationships where I was permanently on the bottom side sexually for many years, and over the last few years I decided to explore what it?s like to be in control of myself and on the other side of that. As a result I?ve found a really good balance for myself.
So it definitely was a slow process of finding myself to figure out the core of who I am, and to figure out that I didn?t have to have all the answers for myself. To know that it could be a gradual progressive process of discovering what does and doesn?t work for me. And I think it will continue to be an evolutionary process.
A few months ago we featured a debate post and a follow up podcast on straight women and bi guys on our site, to get into some of the perceptions women have of bi guys. Have you encountered negativity from straight women in your own life, based on your sexual preferences?
DI: I think that there is a perception among people, including straight women, that being a bi person means taking unnecessary risks ? particularly for guys. And that?s all tied up in what we?ve experienced with the AIDS crisis. There?s the perception that gay sex is a dirty thing. So that I think that by association any guy who has sex with women, but who is also having sex with men is tainted, there?s something potentially wrong with him physically that he can pass on to the women he?s with.
Then in conversations with people I have seen resistance to the idea that bi men are real men. There?s this idea that any guy who would lie with another guy is effeminate, is in some way lesser than and cannot be a real man. That?s all part of the sociocultural shit that we throw on men. That being a bi or queer identified man makes you unable to meet your societal obligations as a man.
Thankfully I?ve not run into that in relationships, because I?ve been with women who identify as bi or queer, or women who were very very accepting. It?s one of the first things I put on the table, as I kind of have to have that conversation early on, because coming out later, once things get serious is counterproductive. I feel it?s important to be clear about the ways I identify early on, so that the person can either take it or leave it.
We?re at the tail end of a month long discussion of sexual fluidity. What does that term mean to you? And how would you say it plays out in your own life?
DI: I believe that to be fluid is to be human. People like to think that things are concrete. Or monkey brains don?t like to deal with the fact that there are shades of grey in most aspects of our lives. That type of impermanence is really scary to some people, but it?s a part of life. And since our sexuality plays such a huge role in our lives, ?in order to grow as people we need to be able to grow and develop sexually as well.
As far as defining the term, to me it implies a certain amount of openness. Not that I have to want to do everything and everyone, but more that if a desire is felt that it doesn?t have to be a scary thing. That however I?m feeling attracted or whatever I desire, as long as it?s not causing any true harm to anyone else it?s okay to explore it and consider acting on it.
With respect to the gender of who you choose to love, has the idea of choosing just one sex ever appealed to you?
DI: There was a time in my life when I would?ve have loved??to have fallen into one bucket and be very easily definable. The urge to fit in is very strong in all of us and I am no exception to that. I had a very religious upbringing, so the urge to not burn in hell, to have an easily explainable relationship with one partner and to meet those general societal expectations to fit in is very strong. And frankly, I still feel that sometimes today. But I?ve learned that the more I try to deny who I am the more unhappy I become. I need to be as authentic as I can, because that leads??real truth, real self-discovery and true happiness for me.
So, it?s been tempting and I?ve definitely done things to assimilate at times, but I recognize when I?ve suffered for it and tried to correct for it.
What would you say to individuals who claim bisexuals ? particularly the men ? are just going through a phase, which can only lead to their eventually being gay?
DI: (sighs) I hear that a lot. Several of the first few people I came out to said ?Oh, I went through that phase as well. Let me know when you?re on the other side of that.? My instinct is to tell them to go fuck themselves (laughs). But what I try to do is make them understand is that I?ve explored this, and this is who I am and what I?m about. And things may change, who knows. But that wouldn?t be because bisexuality isn?t an orientation in and of itself. It would be because on a personal level all people evolve, change and grow from other orientations from where they started out.
So what you?re saying is that there are people who actively refute the existence of bisexuality as a sexual orientation?
You run a support and discussion group called Perspectives on Power. Could you tell me a bit about it, including the services it offers, who it serves and what its mandate is?
DI: It is a support, discussion and educational group for people who are interested or currently in relationships where there is a negotiated power imbalance. Typical labels we?d use for these relationships are dominant and submissive, top and bottom, masters and slaves, owners and property and things like that. Some folks in the BDSM community do incorporate this as part of their day to day living, into their play or what have you, and we help people to live that more authentically. We help people to explore those relationship dynamics and support them through their struggles with it.
People who identify in BDSM often don?t have a lot of relationship role models on how to live it as their everyday lives. So part of the idea is to create a space that is safe and gives people the chance to model off each other and learn from the struggles of others. I think that is really important and crucial. So we do the discussion group the first Thursday of every month in Toronto, and then we do educational workshops as well when we have a good presenter coming through town or when there is high demand for a particular topic. As an example, we had a presentation on conflict resolution within power dynamics recently.
Based on what I?ve read about you you?ve been very active in helping to build community and providing education in the local BDSM and Alternative Sexuality communities in Toronto for over a decade. What is your motivation for doing the work you do?
DI: I have a couple different motivations. I was very fortunate to have some people take me under their wing when I was first developing, and each time I?ve begun to develop and change there have been people there to help me with that. So I feel like I need to return the favour, and pay it forward.
Then there?s the fact that being involved in community, doesn?t make you feel so alone. I spend a third of my day at work, where I wear several different masks. Somebody needed to create spaces for people for explore and grow, and I wasn?t having the kind of conversations that I wanted to have, so I created a space for both.
So part of it is about paying it forward for what I?ve received, and part of it is a bit selfish, in that being part of a community allows me to socialize, meet people, get play dates and what have you , with people I?m interested in connecting with.
Any final thoughts for our readers?
DI: When people are fulfilled in their sexual lives that is a win for society. People who are fulfilled don?t take out their sexual aggression on the rest of the world. Sexually unfulfilled people lead to there being more angry and hostile people in the world, which leads to laws being brought into effect against the rest of us. How many times have we seen Bible thumping gay haters get pulled kicking and screaming out of the closet? We all need to stop othering people for their sexual choices, approach life with and open heart and mind, and always remember that there are many ways to navigate this think called life.
But the biggest thing I want people to take away when it comes to fluidity is that life is too short to not embrace who you are, whatever that is. So if there is a relationship model or type of kink they want to explore, they need not to be afraid of doing it. You don?t want to go to the grave with a lot of regrets. So find a supportive group of people who will help you do that, who will push you to explore and grow, instead of pulling you down.
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Source: http://www.metanotherfrog.com/2012/03/27/sexually-fluid-male/
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